Kilpatrick on Trial: Day 9 of testimony

DETROIT - 8:29AM Video screens turn on extra early today. Courtroom empty.

Bernard Kilpatrick enters courtroom by the side door with defense lawyers John Shea and Susan Van Dusen. They all take a seat at the defendants' table.

9:35AM Bobby Ferguson strolls into the courtroom. He is a little more conservatively dressed than yesterday- sporting a beige jacket, dark vest and tie.

U.S. Attorney Eric Doeh sits alone at the prosecution table.

Courtroom has filled up. Both Kwame Kilpatrick and Victor Mercado have taken their seats at the table.

Emma Bell, former fundraiser for Kwame Kilpatrick, was the only witness to testify yesterday. It was a rough day for Bell who had said it would be hard for her to testify against an man she thought of as a son. She got teary during testimony and left the courthouse in floods of tears.

No word yet on who might be testifying today.

9:01AM Judge enters the courtroom and asks about any issues before jury comes in. No issues.

Judge mentions that John Minock, lawyer for Victor Mercado, is excused for the day for another case.

9:04AM Angela Burris approaches the stand.

Eric Doeh for the government questions.

Doeh asks if you remember Miss Bell? Yes say Burris. I work with her.

Worked with her at county. She was Bell's legislative aide. Burris still helps Bell out sometimes. Helps her with computer and drives her around.

Time frame of 2003-2008, knew Bell then and that she worked as fund-raiser. They worked together at fund-raisers for Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick. Burris would work on the door collecting tickets and checks.

Would take checks to First Independence Bank on Monroe. sometimes to Bell to bank. Then sometimes the would go to city county building. Sometimes Bell told her where they were going. To the mayor's office. Would wait outside for Bell.

Burris drove Bell there more than 10 times but not more than 20.

Burris never made any calls to ask for contribution.

Doeh asks if she worked for Kilpatrick civic Fund? Yes.

How do you know? I assisted her.

Burris would take mailings to post office. Personal checks would come into office.

No further questions.

9:12AM Jim Thomas cross-examines.

You are very close friend of Bell? Yes.

See her on a daily basis? Yes.

Did you talk to her yesterday after testimony? Yes.

Did you see her yesterday? Had dinner with her for about an hour and a half.

You would get checks? Yes.

For $2,500, $5,000 and $10,000? Yes.

Do you remember parties for Civic Fund? Yes.

You worked those parties? Yes.

Lots of money raised? Don't know.

Did you know that Bell got a percentage? didn't know. Never asked.

When you worked parties got checks? Yes.

Would you get other checks? Through mail.

What would you do with mail checks? Make a copy of the checks and then give them to Bell.

Who did she give checks to? Don't know.

Did you ever meet Christine Beatty about Civic Fund? No.

Burris sometimes she would drop off Bell to go meet with the Mayor.

Did you know Beatty? Yes.

When you saw her at events do you think she was running civic Fund? No because I was at the door collecting checks.

Burris says sometimes Bell would come out to greet people. Copied the checks the next day. sometimes Burris deposited checks, sometimes Bell. and sometimes the treasurer, Sarah Hacker.

Christine Beatty? No.

How many times did Bell tell you she was meeting with mayor? Several.

How many times did she say she was meeting mayor about Civic Fund? didn't say why she was meeting him.

Did you work inauguration? Yes.

You don't know who is responsible? I was working event.

Burris remembers Cathy Govan and Emma Bell.

Did you see Betty, Derrick Miller there? Yes.

Weren't they and others assuming responsibility? Not from where I was.

Thomas says you drove Bell to city county building. When she went there, she had other business there? Sometimes yes.

On Tuesdays I dropped her off to Zoning Board meetings.

Thomas says she didn't drive? Yes.

You're close? Yes.

You would drive her almost anywhere? Yes.

Did you take her to the casino? Yes.

Did you know she had a gambling habit? Didn't think of it as a habit.

Burris says she would take her twice a week.

Did you know she went more than that? No. I wasn't with her every day.

I asked if she admitted to you she went other days? Yes sometimes she did.

Were you seeing every day between 2003 and 2008? Yes.

I only know about times I took her to casino.

Thomas says did you ever see her loads of cash? No.

Did you know about cashier's checks? No.

Burris says she did not talk about her money.

Did you consider her a generous employer? Yes.

Only time Burris saw her with large amounts of cash was after fund-raiser.

Burris only deposited checks.

Thomas says you said if it was cash, she would deposited.

Burris says we all collected money and gave it to her. Bell took it to bank.

Did you go in with her and watch her deposit it? No.

You knew people at First Independence? Yes.

You knew she wasn't deposited into her checking account? Yes.

Did you ever deposit it into an account? Yes.

Did she pay you out of checking account? No she paid me in cashier's checks.

There were meetings in Greektown- did you know about them? Wasn't at those meetings.

Did you ever see Emma Bell give Kwame large amounts of cash? No.

Did you ever see Kwame attend Greektown meetings? No.

Went you took Bell to casino did you go in with her? Yes.

Do you see her gamble? No.

Were there times she had spent several hours gambling? Yes.

More than 8 hours? Not sure.

Were you aware she had drinking problem? No.

Were you aware she was drinking every day? No.

Did she ever have lapses in memory? Not with me.

How many fund-raisers did you work? Many but can't give you a number.

You must have spent a lot of time in the car? It was no big deal for me.

Burris says I thought Bell knew how to do her job. she was very good at her job.

Dinner last night for a few hours? About 2.

You telling me you didn't talk about case? Yes.

Did you meet with government? Today.

Did they talk to you about Bell's testimony? Yes.

Would you be surprised to know that she said she never talked to you about mayor.

9:31AM Gerald Evelyn cross-examines.

Burris worked with Bell since 1999.

Only source of income working with Bell? Yes.

How long has that been? Until the Kilpatrick times. Don't work for her.

Would you gamble too? Yes.

Kwame writing furious notes. Thomas comes back.

9:33AM Thomas says she never told you she was going to see mayor. Yes.

Did she ever complain about paying kickback to the mayor? No.

9:34AM Doeh redirects.

Would Bell talk about financials to you? No.

Would you know how much money she was putting in purse? No.

Did you know her to travel with pocketbook? Yes.

When you waited outside did you know what she was talking to mayor about? No.

Witness excused.

9:35AM Mark Chutkow says Robert Beeckman with FBI.

Judge says he will be testifying a number of times like Ron Sauer of IRS.

With FBI for 17 years. now with public corruption squad- municipal corruption, police corruption, public official corruption.

Went to law school. Was prosecuting attorney. Joined FBI in 1995.

Obtained mayor's text messages with search warrants.

2 search warrants: 1 from April 8th 2008.

Thomas objects.

Second one from November 18th 2008.

First one was to Skytel messages that related to Christine Beatty, former chief of staff for Kwame, Derrick Miller, was chief information officer for former mayor, Michael Tardif, political liaison to mayor, and Bernard Kilpatrick on city pagers.

Second one was for text messages of Kwame Kilpatrick and Bobby Ferguson. First time around, didn't get them because they didn't have pin numbers. Needed to review info that came back to get pin numbers for mayor.

There were pin numbers assigned to the city. Bobby Ferguson did not have a city Skytel.

Beeckman has discs that contain text info.

Chutkow says have you looked at CDs? Yes but this is the wrong folder.

Chutkow hands him another one. Still wrong. Behind Jennifer Blackwell of the government.

Yes this is November 18th warrant?

The CDS had pin number and text messages from 2002-2005.

Exhibit TXT 2 admitted into evidence. Onto the overhead. A text message from Bernard with his pin number and telephone number. also has name of company Maestro Associates. His pin # is 8884643899.

Message to pin #4677164, Kwame Kilpatrick's pin #.

You were in courtroom when Bell testified yesterday? Yes.

You were here when she received first check in August 4th 2003 that was first check she split? Yes.

Exhibit EB 1 admitted- $100,00 check to Emma Bell from Kilpatrick fro Mayor. It was a July 30th event. Signed by Gregory Terrell, CPA for campaign, and Christine Beatty.

Victor Mercado sees himself reflected in overhead and pulls back from screen.

Exhibit EB 2- text message from Dedan Milton to Kwame on august 6th 2003.

Exhibit EB 3- text message from Samara Bradley to Kwame.

Message from DeDan says "Emma wanted to stop in later for @ 5-10 minutes max. What should I tell her?"

Message from Samara Bradley: "Emma Bell is her."

Reply to Samara: Tell her to come to Chris ofc." August 6th 2003.

Beeckman says Kiplatrick Fund was a non-profit tax exempt organization. An org which is not taxed by federal government. Set up with IRS. Gets money from soliciting donations.

Chutkow hands witness documents. Submission of documents for Kilpatrick Civic Fund.

KCF2- application for recognition of exemption under 501A. Signed Kwame Kilpatrick on June 1st 1999.

Incorporation of Kilpatrick Civic Fund. Purposes: to promote neighborhood activities and betterment of youth of Detroit, to provide info to the citizens of Detroit and to promote importance of voting, promote positive image of Detroit, to receive and administer assets for religious and scientific purposes.

The corporation shall not participate or intervene in or any political campaign for any political candidate.

Overhead shows Incumbency Certificate. Officers listed: Kwame Kilpatrick, Derrick Miller, Vice chairman, Erik Rayford, 2nd Vice-Chairman, Christine Beatty, Tresurer, Ayanna Kilpatrick, Secretary. All signed the document.

Erik Rayford is 2nd Vice-Chairman and an officer on the Kilpatrick Civic Fund.

A DVD copy of a debate on October 28th 2001. Spotlight mayoral debate with Kwame Kilpatrick and Gil Hill. subpoenaed from Channel 7.

Who else participated? Chuck Stokes was moderated, and panelists were Val Clark and Guy Gordon. All with Channel 7.

They play the video of the debate. Kwame mesmerized by own image.

Audio problems. No one can hear video. "Definitely low-tech." says Judge Nancy Edmunds.

Chutkow trying to figure things out. Listening to debate video.

A week before elections. a baby faced Kwame Kilpatrick looks serious and young. Stokes outlining rules.

Val Clark starts. You are both God-fearing men. Mr. Kilpatrick have you done, said or done anything illegal that would prevent you from taking office? No. Haven't done anything wromg. "We have conducted ourselves in an honorable way. think that Detroiters are realizing we can't waste 4, 8 or 12 more years in the city.

Guy Gordon asks about keeping contributors private? Kilpatrick Civic Fund set up by young people. We sent info to Attorney General and state who have given a clean bill of health. We haven't used one penny of this fund. We cannot disclose each and every person who has given to the fund.

Video ends.

Chtkow asks Beeckman this isn't entire debate? No it lasts about an hour.

Many more questions of Gil hill and Kilpatrick? Yes.

No further questions.

10:11AM John Shea, Bernard Kilpatrick's lawyer, cross-examines. 

You got list of Skytel pins and messages? Yes.

City employees? We asked for city employees and this is what we got. These individuals had city leased pagers.

People on the list not employees like Bernard and the first lady? Correct.

The pin for Bernard was only associated with city until March 28th 2003? Yes.

10:14AM Thomas cross-examines.

Thomas says this was a document that contains materials not only that you testified but documents for 501c4? Yes.

You determined there a CPA for Civic Fund? Yes.

Greg Terrell? Yes.

Do you know Erik Rayford? Don't know him as a person.

Do you know he was a bank examiner? Yes.

Thomas asks for page 4 of document on overhead.

Document signed by Beatty signed in 1998. At that time, Kwame Kilpatrick was in House of Representatives and hadn't declared intentions for runnng as mayor.

Aware that 501c4 approved? Yes.

This document signed in June 1999 by Kwame Kilpatrick? Yes. 

Another application for exemption on March 25th 1998? Yes.

Signed by Beatty on the bottom and lists Kwame as contact person? Yes.

Do you know subtle distinctions between 501c4 and 501c3? No.

Thomas basically trying to establish that Beeckman is not an expert in this.

Thomas says one of the purposes cited in 1998 is to promote neighborhood activities that enhance the community. Would that include speeches? Depends what the speech is about.

It should be issue specific to neighborhoods? Yes.

As it relates to voting can't say vote for me but can say go vote! Yes.

Thomas asks for KCF 2 page 10. Looks as if as early as 1998, says Thomas, there had been no materials published. Question asks about published materials- box checked no. no such materials have been published to date but will publish voter materials at a later date.

Thomas asks about KCF 2 page 15. Asks Beeckman are you aware 501c4 approved? Yes.

Thomas says we saw speech in 2001? Yes.

Did these articles of incorporation guide from 1998 to 2001? Yes.

Aware of any changes to articles of incorporation? No.

Were you aware of Kwame being changed between 2003 and 2008? Yes at some point he was no longer Chairman of th Kilpatrick Civic Fund.

As relates to check signing, management related to lawyers, CPA and Beatty? Yes.

In July 2001, were you aware there were re-stated articles of incorporation? Would not surprise me.

Did you see it? No.

KCF 2 page 15, on overhead.  Thomas reads the corporation shall not participate or intervene in any political campaign on behalf of or against any candidate for political office.

Thomas says it doesn't prohibit discussion of people running for office? Don't understand the question.

Thomas says you can't use vote and someone's name in same sentence. Correct.

Thomas approaches.

Thomas admits D KCF 1, 2 and 3: amended articles of incorporation.

Thomas asks have you seen these before? Can't remember that I have says Beeckman.

D KCF1- from April 12 2001, Kwame Kilpatrick, Christine Beatty and Ayanna Kilpatrick all listed on document.

D KCF 2- dated July 19th 2002- reflects change in administration of non-profit. Kwame no longer there. Ayanna Kilpatrick is President.

D KCF 3- dated September 2002- documents filed with state of Michigan. 

Judge calls for a 20 minute break. Next up they will talk about Emma Bell's $100,000 check when Thomas continues cross examination.

10:53AM Court back in session.

FBI agent Beeckman gets ready to take the stand again.

Jury takes their seats.

Thomas asks permission to publish for jury D KCF 1,2 and 3. The article of incorporation amendments.

D KCF 2- for July 19th 2002- signed by William Phillips.

D KCK 3- Thomas inaudible. Document has William Phillips on it.

Now looking at EB 3.1- the Samara Bradley, administrative aide, text message where it indicates that "Emma Bell is here.

Thomas says does it say she should meet me privately? No.

Thomas says it says come to Chris Office? Witness says it says got to Chris's office.

Christine Beatty's office is not right next to mayor's office? No.

You have to go by secretaries to go to mayor's office? Yes.

Christine Beatty's office is at south end of entire office? Beeckman says Mayor's office is east of Beatty's.

Thomas ask if Beeckman was ever in the offices when Kwame was mayor? Witness says he doesn't think so.

Thomas says there was a $100,000 check to Emma Bell that you testified about.

Thomas jokes with jurors about overhead issues- "you'd think we had this planned."

Judge interjects and asks juror if they can't see. juror says they are ok.

August 6th 2003, date of text messages exchanges.

The date of the negotiation on Emma Bell's check was August 6th 2003. There isn't a time for it.

Thomas says text message conversation between Bell and Kwame later in the day? Yes.

After the check had been negotiated? Yes.

Did you got to First Independence Bank to get materials? Yes.

Where did you get the $100,000 check from? We got it from you. The bank didn't have all the records. there were some missing items they said.

There was a cashier's check that Emma Bell on august 6th 2003?

You aware that we were able to get it when you were not? Yes.

Did you check it against the other bank records for the other $58,000? No.

And the bank wouldn't give Bell $58,000? Not without doing a CTR.

Thomas says bank required to do CTRs on anything over $10,000 over a year? Anything in cash over $10,000 in a transaction.

If the bank was doing its job, there wouldn't have been any cash out of the $58,000 taken out? Well there could have been $10,000 says Beeckman.

So based on all this info, this check doesn't appear to have been negotiated on August 6th 2003? Yes.

Thomas says we don't have any evidence of cash coming to Emma Bell on August 6th? "Not in terms of the bank records, no."

Thomas left. Judge asks for any more crosses. Thomas comes back. "You just going to keep going then?" Courtroom laughs.

Going back almost 10 years on these bank records? Yes.

Were you aware if Kwame ever made any payment to the Civic Fund in 2008? I know he made payments to the Fund but i don't know if it was 2008.

You know that a check was submitted back to Civic Fund? I don't know about a check but cash was.

11:15AM Chutkow re-directs.

You were asked about subtleties of 501c4? Yes.

You can't tell in advertisement to vote for candidate? Yes.

Now the Kilpatrick Civic Fund wasn't supposed to endorse any candidate? Yes.

It was on the basis of this promise that they received their non-profit status from IRS? Yes.

Besides just subtleties of 501c4, Kilpatrick in his debate represented that he hadn't spent one penny in his campaign? Yes.

KCF 1 -amended article of incorporation. In March 2001, Kwame still President. And then another amendment in 2002, that now Ayanna is President? Yes she is his sister. Kwame took office in January 2002.

So at the time of debate he was still President of the fund? Yes.

So when he said that he hadn't spend a single penny of the fund on his campaign he was still President in October 2001? Yes.

Even when he became mayor and relegated presidency of fund, was there anything in there amended to say that they could make contributions to campaigns. "No that wouldn't be possible."

Even after Ayanna took over was Kwame still running the fund? Yes. 

11:21AM Thomas re-directs. 

D KCF 4 shown to Beeckman. Thomas asks do you see a date on that?

Thomas asks for D KCF 2- looking at paragraph 4- articles of incorporation before the speech where it says he should not engage in political campaign.

D KCF 4- articles of incorporation dated July 26th 2001 filed with the secretary of State.

Thomas says do you see paragraph 4 as relates to campaign? No.

Thomas says you can speak about a candidate? Yes.

You can pay money out the fund to promote? Yes but for non-campaign specific issues.

Well you can talk about candidate but you can't say go vote for them? Yes.

Beeckman says that paragraph is deleted there but it essentially is in effect. you can't have a 501c4 otherwise.

Thomas you can talk about them but can't

11:26AM Chutkow re-directs.

You've testified about application for status? Yes.

so they were still subject to the rules? Yes.

So you couldn't take money from Civic Fund and give it to a campaign? Yes.

Beeckman steps down.

11:27AM Government calls Daniel Gotoff to the stand.

Works at Lake Research Partners in D.C. and NYC. He is a partner there . Conducts public opinion research. Manages client base of campaigns. Hired by campaign to conduct survey of adults on range of issues. could be phone survey work, focus group research.

Political campaigns as client? Yes.

Were you working there in 2001? Yes.

Was it called something different then? Yes it was called Lake Snell Perry at the time. Witness was an associate analyst.

Did you do any work in 2001 for Kilpatrick for Mayor? Yes in April or May. It was before primaries to assess viability of campaign for mayor.

Who hired you? I believe it was Bob Berg. He was a Detroit-based consultant.

Please look at KCF 3 what is it? Invoice for survey that we conducted for Kilpatrick for Mayor exploratory committee. checks paid for that work.

How were the checks paid for? Kilpatrick Civic Fund to Lake Snell Perry.

After that what is it? The results of our research.

Who is it prepared for? Kwame Kilpatrick.

What did you first do? A series of conference calls for objectives of research, types of arguments that supporters and opponents would be making.

Then tasked to draft script for telephone survey that would walk respondents through this process.

What kind of base targeted? 500 likely democratic voters in the city. Drew from file of district voters.

Looking for people who might be more likely to vote in this current primary? Yes.

How big voter list collected? We get anywhere from 20 to 40 names for each interview. For 500 sample, we might have 20,000 to 40,000 names. It's a 20 minute survey.

"It's a challenge" says witness.

How many people in phone bank? Approximately 60 people over 4 to 5 days. On week days between 5 and 9pm. On weekends during the day.

What are people asked? confirm voting in city of Detroit. that they are voting in upcoming elections. Asked about concerns for the city. Questions about number of political actors in the city. Who they would vote for.

You ask general questions about all candidates for mayor? Yes.

What is point of progressive information? Trying to understand how attitudes might shift.

This progressive questioning is that centered on particular candidate? Centered on specific candidate. In this case, Mr. Kilpatrick. Will follow up with description of all the candidates. Then write series of statements on Kilpatricks. Have people answer to see how effective they are. Finally come back to vote question.

Where do you get positive and negative questions? From the campaign.

Look at KCF 3A- witness says this is questionnaire for script of survey they conduct with percentages filled in post interviews conducted.

Chutkow says go to page 20 of exhibit- witness' reads "now I'm going to read several statements about Kwame Kilpatrick"

Example of positive statement" Kilpatrick will make cracking down on crime a top priority." 17% of respondents said very convincing, 45% somewhat convincing: 62% positively think as a reason to vote for him.

Witness says make recommendations on what is most persuasive to say to voters.

Negative statement example: "Kilpatrick is a political insider more interested in the perks and privileges of holding office than actually getting the job done. He has never done anything in his life but run for office and play football."- 18% says raise serious doubts, 30% some doubts: 48% serious doubts.

Was info collected in this survey done for a particular candidate? This was done specifically for Kilpatrick campaign.

Not given to opponents? No.

What did you do after? Prepared a report on results of analysis.

KCF 5-Kwame Kilpatrick for Mayor of Detroit -Overview of summary findings. Documents says prepared for Kwame Kilpatrick. Written by Celinda Lake, David Cantor, Daniel Gotoff and Thaddeus Windt. Dated May 2001.

They found that there was a really opening for Kilpatrick as Mayor. As voters learned more about Kilpatrick, they were more likely to support him.

Also found that age was not a barrier to people supporting him which was concern at the time.

The report was 32 pages long.

KCF 3 on overhead- invoice for 60% of cost of survey for $21,930. Billed to Kilpatrick for Mayor to Berg. Dated April 27 2001. This was standard to cover cost.

Looking at check itself. With Kilpatrick Civic fund check on April 28th 2001. signed by Christine Beatty and Kwame Kilpatrick. check for $13,158.

Another invoice on June 15th 2001- $8,872 total amount.

2nd check from Kilpatrick Civic fund for 8,872 on July 30 2001. Signed by Christine Beatty and Kwame Kilpatrick.

Was that all work? also conducted 2 focus groups for campaign.

As a result of what you found do you know if they posted papers to enter race? Yes.

They conducted 2 focus groups amongst small group of voters screened to be undecided. Somewhere between 8 to 12 people. They are paid.

There is a moderator who leads discussion. They are able to talk through ambivalence of their issues. Forum to talk opinions with peers about info provided. Moderators all working for the firm.

They would go to Detroit to do this. Found the voters from same list as phone survey. Called them up and screened them to make sure they are registered, likely to vote but undecided.

There is clear focus on candidate hired by. Clear focus on Kwame Kilpatrick.

In focus groups, tested reactions to tv ads.

Would campaign give you advertising? Yes.

Mail piece what is that? Direct mail that ends up in voters mailboxes.

Would you give mail pieces to support Kwame's campaign to focus group? Yes.

What about radio advertisement? Yes and TV.

What about for the other candidates? In this case, no.

Looking at KCF 4- invoice for the focus groups conducted. Payment for those groups and discussion guide for participants. at the back is memo prepared based on findings for those groups.

KCF 4 on overhead: first document is top of the memo prepared on focus groups. to Kwame Kilpatrick for Mayor team. Date August 8th 2001. Subject Key Focus Group findings, Findings were there was really opening for him, no real objections to his age, he came as strong an knowledgeable leader when he spoke.

Now looking at focus Group Discussion Guide- times at 135 minutes for discussion and explanations, discussion about outlook for the city, sorts of issues concerning them, knowledge of candidates, took up more than 1st hour of group. Also reactions to video clips of Kwame. Direct mail advertising, radio advertising. wrap up.

Page 1 of KCF4- Invoice to Kilpatrick for Mayor July 17th 2001 for 4 focus groups for $18,875 for 75%. Amount reduced because only 2 focus groups.

Next a check dated July 30th 2001 from Kilpatrick Civic Fund for $14,000.

Did you know what the Kilpatrick Civic Fund? No. Unaware this invoices wouldn't have come to my attention.

Did you do any polls on how to improve city life for youth or improving the community? No. this was all campaign related. This is all candidate specific.

12:16PM Still on break. Kwame walks up to Thomas at the stand, covers the microphone and whispers in Thomas's ear.
12:18PM Judge re-enters courtroom.
Waiting for jury to sit.
12:20PM Jim Thomas cross-examines.
Your firm engaged when? April 2001.

Did you know if Kwame Kilpatrick had thrown his hat in the ring? At that point I don't believe he had.
Isn't it true that the work you did do focused on issues?
Government objects. Judge overrules.
Yes answers the witness.
There was a focus group guide? Yes.
What was the guide? It was the script that moderator used to lead discussion. What I described earlier.
Prior to that done an actual survey? Yes.
It's also pretty thick. Hands documents to witness. this basically says a survey being done. An intro that has been scripted for person conducting survey.
You're focusing on voters and their issues. Yes.
This is identifying focus group if people supporting the way Detroit is going or not? Yes.
Could one of the factors be issues? Yes.
Thomas says I am talking about 501c4 is it ok to talk about issues? Yes.
Thomas says paragraph talks about concerns. That's issues right? Yes.
As issues relate to person that is going to be next mayor of Detroit? Yes.
Witness says READ and ROTATE is list of things that people can choose from.
Thomas says if the next mayor wanted to inform people about what they thought was important this would be an important document to do that? Yes.
Thomas says this list not specific to Kwame Kilpatrick? On this only one out of 14 addresses Kwame Kilpatrick.
Thomas points to specific phrases: invest in park and open spaces. Yes says witness, it's a mixture of issues.

Thomas reads invest in infrastructure, tear down buildings.
Witness says this is asking them to rate a number of issues and themes.
As it relates to questions, when you start to talk about issues parks and seniors, this was put in here to ask what was important in their lives? this was written in the context as what could be important to the mayor.
Not one place in this document does it say vote for Kwame Kilpatrick?
this is document submitted to say what issues are important not vote for Kwame?
Government objects.
Thomas says I'll go page by page with the witness.
You are asking general questions about a mayor and what people would like to see in a mayor? Yes.
Goes on to talk about cooperation. Correct.
Surveying people about the things they think would be important? Correct.
Thomas says ok keep going back to context of the mayor. Can a 501c4 support information about a particular issue?
Government objects and says he is not an expert. Judge sustains.
Do you think a check from the Kilpatrick Civic fund is appropriate?
You have not been involved in any advertising on behalf of 501c4? I'm sure we've done some work for 501c4s.
Yes witness we've done work for 501c4s.
As long as it doesn't say "vote for" it's appropriate? that's my understanding says witness.
Witness says bob Berg contacted him to assess viability of the campaign.
But it wasn't just one particular candidate? No it was focused on Kilpatrick exploratory effort.
Where you aware that Sharon McPhail was later a candidate? Yes.
Thomas reads long list of other possible candidates including Gil Hill.
Witness says this a survey that includes other people than Kilpatrick.
Thomas asks do you foreclose the possibility that this document could have been share with other people. No
Do you know if this was shared with other candidates. I don't know that this was shared with other candidates.
Looking at KCF 3A- page 15. Looking at article 2 of articles of incorporation.
Thomas tells him Kilpatrick Civic Fund paid for your services. Correct.
In May of 2001, Kwame had not yet announced as mayor would you agree? Yes.
Thomas takes witness through the Civic Fund's purposes: to promote community activities that enhance neighborhoods.
Wouldn't you agree that polling information you did would be important to enhance community neighborhoods. In an indirect way I guess.
Isn't it important to have parks and police. That would be important says witness.
Your assumption was that it was used for Kwame to run as mayor. But there is another purpose can you see that now?
Government objects. Judge sustains.
Witness asks repeat the question.
You got paid by the civic Fund and I'm showing you a document about their purposes. and that the polling info could be important. Do you see that? Yes.
The betterment of the lives of the youth. Couldn't your poll help with that? Witness says there is some information here that could be used to that end.
Jobs and economic development? Yes.
Abandoned buildings probably important to youths. Sure. Yes.
Thomas on paragraph 2 to provide Detroiters with legislative information.
Witness says this a survey not of all registered voters but of some voters registered to vote in the city of Detroit.
Paragraph c to participate in activities that promote better image of Detroit? abandoned buildings, garbage bag collection. Certainly crime has effect on image of Detroit. Yes sir.
These were the things that you were measuring? Yes.
Looking at the READ and ROTATE list of things the survey group will be talking to registered voters about.
You did other work for Kilatrick for Mayor after this event? Yes.
And they paid you out of the Kilpatrick for Mayor account in 2004? I don't know about that.
Where yo engaged in conversations about strategy with Kilpatrick? I don't think I ever had a direct conversation with Kilpatrick.
Kids Cops and Clean program did you know about it? No it's not familiar with me.
One of your recommendation was not to cut taxes, cut grass and build rec center to cut crime? I don't know if we made that specific recommendation.
Your involvement with providing info ended when?
Thomas ends.
12:56PM Chutkow redirects.
See where it says bill to Kilpatrick for Mayor.
Who was your client? Kilpatrick for Mayor.
Who was the one who benefitted from this? Kilpatrick campaign.
Purpose of focus groups? To test reactions of people to media on behalf of the campaign.
August 8th 2001- findings reported- these voters know Kwame but not well- some also associate him with cronyism- "I've heard that he's lots of peoples' man but can't be everyone's man."
"Our most powerful messenger is the candidate himself."
Thomas objects.
Who did you intend this for? This is intended for the campaign.
What was your point to convey to the campaign? Our point was to refine mail advertising.
Witness says we wanted to report back how persuasive the piece was.
This was to help Kilpatrick to refine advertising to get into office? Yes.
You didn't share this with his opponents? No.
Have you ever seen the Civic Fund's articles of incorporations before today? No.
Do you know if any of the info you distributed in this case would have been distributed to the public? No that would have been unusual. Because this type of info is proprietary for the camaign.
Witness hasn't distributed negative info about the candidate to the public. "We would get fired pretty quickly for doing that."
Who did you distribute it to? Folks at the Kwame Kilpatrick for Mayor Campaign
Did you discuss distributing this more broadly to the community? No we did not.
1:04PM Thomas redirects
On a day by day basis you wouldn't know what the campaign had done with this info? No.
Are you aware that this survey was shown to others running against Kilpatrick to show them the issues? No.
Witness says the question we were asked was if we would share sensitive information. My answer was no.
What if there was an opponent you wanted to get behind you? I don't think I would share the essence.
Do you foreclose the possibility it could be used by Mr. Kilpatrick to promote unity? I don't foreclose on that possibility.
Thank you says Thomas.
Witness excused. "You can return to NYC where you will no doubt root for the Yankees.", says Edmunds
Reminds jurors that court is closed for Columbus Day on Monday. Session resumes Tuesday morning at 9AM.
Also reminds them not to discuss the case with anyone.
Thomas says "Go Tigers!" to the judge.

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