OXFORD, Mich. – The trial for Jennifer Crumbley, the mother of the teenage boy who killed four people during a shooting at Oxford High School, resumed Monday. We have full updates from Day 3 inside the courtroom.
Last week, the prosecution called five witnesses to the stand across Thursday and Friday. We heard from three additional witnesses on Monday.
Here are some quick facts heading into the trial:
- Jennifer and James Crumbley are both facing four counts of involuntary manslaughter in connection with their son’s mass shooting. Those charges stem from the deaths of 14-year-old Hana St. Juliana, 16-year-old Tate Myre, 17-year-old Madisyn Baldwin, and 17-year-old Justin Shilling.
- The Crumbley parents were originally going to be tried together, but they asked for separate trials in November, and a judge granted their request.
- Defense attorneys Shannon Smith and Shaun Godwin represent Jennifer Crumbley. Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald and assistant Prosecutor Marc Keast represent the people. Oakland County Circuit Judge Cheryl A. Matthews is hearing the case.
- The shooter was sentenced in December to life in prison without the chance of parole.
Click here to read Thursday’s full list of updates, and here to read Friday’s. Click here if you want to watch the proceedings live.
Here are the full updates from Day 3 of the trial:
Judge leaves
- 5:03 p.m. Monday
Matthews left the courtroom at 5:03 p.m. with the list of photos that are under dispute. She told everyone they could leave for the day.
Plan for tomorrow
- 5:01 p.m. Monday
The judge is hearing arguments for the 55 pieces of evidence that are under dispute between the prosecution and the defense. Those are expected to be resolved either before the judge leaves Monday or before the jury returns Tuesday.
Matthews asked jury members to be back at 8:30 a.m. Tuesday. They were released just after 3:30 p.m. Monday, which is about an hour and a half earlier than the first two days of trial.
Cameras turned off
- 4:46 p.m. Monday
Since some of the photos might not be admitted, the judge asked that all live streams and recordings be turned off.
Relevance is objection
- 4:45 p.m. Monday
The majority of the pictures that are up for dispute are being disputed by the evidence due to relevance, according to Keast and Smith.
55 pictures up for dispute
- 4:44 p.m. Monday
Keast said 55 pieces of evidence, specifically pictures, have been removed at this time and are up for dispute.
Judge, both sides return
- 4:43 p.m. Monday
Matthews, prosecutors, and the defense went back on the record.
More video of testimony
- 4:37 p.m. Monday
Here is the full testimony from Kira Pennock:
More video of testimony
- 4:31 p.m. Monday
Here is the full testimony from Shawn Hopkins (in two parts):
Video of testimony
- 4:21 p.m. Monday
Here is the full testimony from Oakland County Sgt. Joe Brian:
Full video of police interview
- 4:08 p.m. Monday
Here’s the full video that was shown in court of the Crumbleys interviewing with police after the shooting.
Timeline of court’s return
- 3:54 p.m. Monday
Keast said before the court went off the record that it shouldn’t take more than about 15-20 minutes for the two sides to meet and discuss evidence.
They began around 3:40 p.m.
Live stream will return soon
- 3:39 p.m. Monday
Matthews instructed the media not to live stream or record during off-the-record discussions about the evidence. Once the two sides are ready to go back on the record, our stream will continue.
The jury will not return today.
Discussing evidence
- 3:38 p.m. Monday
The defense has objections to certain pieces of evidence, and Keast wants to remove the other pieces that have been agreed upon before going before the judge.
Keast and Smith are going to discuss the evidence and return to be heard by the judge. That discussion is taking place inside the courtroom with Jennifer Crumbley present.
What’s next?
- 3:36 p.m. Monday
Matthews instructed the jury to be back at 8:30 a.m. Tuesday for court to resume.
Jury released for day
- 3:35 p.m. Monday
The judge said there is a large amount of evidence that needs to be organized before being presented to the jury.
Instead of having them wait at the courthouse while that’s being taken care of, they are being dismissed for the day.
Context for video
- 3:34 p.m. Monday
We will post the full video of the police interview soon.
The questioning of Brian about Jennifer Crumbley’s behavior likely stemmed from her posture during the interview with police. She sat with her legs crossed, scrolling through her phone.
Keast was clearly trying to prove that Jennifer Crumbley didn’t have an appropriate emotional response to what her son had done. But Smith argued that everyone handles these types of situations differently.
Smith also pointed out that Jennifer Crumbley was showing officers content from her phone, not just scrolling for no reason. Jennifer Crumbley did tell officers about some messages exchanged with her son.
Re-cross examination: Sgt. Joe Brian
- 3:30 p.m. Monday
Smith requested a re-cross, and the judge said she can ask a question. Smith clarified that Jennifer Crumbley was asked to show officers something on her phone, and Brian agreed.
Redirect: Sgt. Joe Brian
- 3:29 p.m. Monday
Keast asked if anyone has ever scrolled through their phone throughout an interview. Brian said no.
Cross examination: Sgt. Joe Brian
- 3:28 p.m. Monday
Smith asked Brian if it’s fair to say everyone reacts differently to learning about these types of tragedies. He said yes.
Smith asked if Brian had any interaction with the Crumbleys or their son before that interview. He said no.
Smith said he wouldn’t know how they should react, then.
‘Atypical’?
- 3:27 p.m. Monday
Brian said he conducts these types of interviews everyday. He said he’s done thousands of them and called the Crumbleys’ reaction atypical.
The defense objected, saying everyone would act differently. The judge agreed.
Brian said parents commonly cry or ask “why?” when their child commits a crime. But Smith said Brian has not talked to other parents who have committed a school shooting.
Transcript of video
- 3:26 p.m. Monday
Since the audio was garbled in the courtroom, the prosecution offered a transcript.
Video ends
- 3:24 p.m. Monday
The video ended and the questioning of Brian continued.
Parents taken to see shooter
- 3:22 p.m. Monday
The Crumbley parents were taken into the room where the shooter was being held. Police asked him a few questions.
He was handcuffed to a railing.
As the parents left, Jennifer Crumbley appeared to ask the shooter, “Why?”
Officers then allowed the parents to leave and told them they would be in contact with them shortly.
Jennifer Crumbley scrolling through phone
- 3:20 p.m. Monday
Jennifer Crumbley was scrolling through her cellphone throughout the interview. It’s unclear what she was doing on her phone.
Questions about weapons, ammunition
- 3:18 p.m. Monday
Police asked the Crumbleys about their guns, including whether or not the magazines were loaded.
Jennifer Crumbley said she and the shooter had purchased 100 rounds when they went to the shooting range over the weekend.
James Crumbley said he’s been trying to teach his son shooter safety.
Previous issues
- 3:14 p.m. Monday
The parents told officers that the shooter has never had problems with the law or been suspended from school.
They said his grades had been up and down so they were talking to him about that.
James Crumbley describes rushing home
- 3:12 p.m. Monday
James Crumbley told officers that when he heard what had happened, considering the meeting they had in the morning with their son, he drove home and realized the gun was gone.
At this point, the Crumbleys said they would like to have a lawyer present.
‘He’s a perfect kid’
- 3:11 p.m. Monday
James Crumbley told police that his kid isn’t someone who gets in trouble.
“(The shooter’s name) is a perfect kid,” James Crumbley said. “He doesn’t get in trouble at school.”
Jennifer Crumbley describes text conversation
- 3:08 p.m. Monday
James Crumbley said he went to Meijer and tried to get in contact with his son. Jennifer Crumbley interjected that her son had texted her that he loved her.
She went through text messages she had exchanged with the shooter after their meeting at the school.
Jennifer Crumbley asks for lawyer
- 3:07 p.m. Monday
James Crumbley tells police about the drawing on the math practice test. Jennifer Crumbley asked her husband if they needed to get a lawyer.
She was asked whether there are explosive devices or any other immediate danger.
Recording of police interviewing parents shown in court
- 3:04 p.m. Monday
Video of police interview begins in court.
Parents come in for interview
- 3:02 p.m. Monday
Brian said the Crumbley parents arrived at the substation at his request around 2 p.m. Nov. 30, 2021. Keast said the exact timing was 1:58 p.m. He spoke with them immediately after they arrived.
Brian interviewed both Jennifer Crumbley and James Crumbley. That interview was recorded, and he has reviewed it.
Exhibit 340 is the recording of Brian’s interview. It’s about 20 minutes long.
NOTE: The timestamp on the video is off by one hour. Brian said he doesn’t know why.
Day of shooting
- 3 p.m. Monday
On the day of the shooting, Brian was sent to the Oakland County Sheriff’s Office substation in Oxford to conduct interviews. The shooter was already in custody.
When he learned who the shooter’s parents were, he tried to speak to them, and he called them and asked them to come to the substation, according to Brian.
Witness: Sgt. Joe Brian
- 2:58 p.m. Monday
Sgt. Joe Brian is a detective sergeant with Oakland County Sheriff’s Office. He’s part of the special investigations unit. He had the same job at the time of the shooting.
At the time, he had been on the force for about 27 years.
Jennifer Crumbley returns
- 2:57 p.m. Monday
Jennifer Crumbley returned to the courtroom.
Who we’ve heard from today
- 2:51 p.m. Monday
Day 3 of the trial began with testimony from the owner of the farm where the Crumbleys kept their horses. Part of the prosecution’s strategy is to make it appear that Jennifer Crumbley spent more time caring for her horses than her son.
Kira Pennock was asked about messages she exchanged with Jennifer Crumbley and testified that she was worried for the safety of herself and others who kept their horses at the same barn.
Next up was Shawn Hopkins, who was a counselor at the high school at the time of the shooting. He went through several emails he received about the shooter in March, September, and November of 2021.
Both sides asked him extensively about meeting with the shooter on the morning of the shooting because of drawings on a math worksheet. There was also discussion about the day before the shooting, when the shooter was seen researching bullets in school.
What’s next after break
- 2:43 p.m. Monday
Both sides have finished questioning Hopkins, so once the court returns from break, the prosecution will call a new witness for questioning.
McDonald and Keast said right before the judge left that they weren’t sure who they would call next
Court takes break
- 2:32 p.m. Monday
Judge Matthews said the court would take a short break.
Hopkins on what he didn’t know
- 2:31 p.m. Monday
Hopkins said he would have liked to have had as much information as possible at the time of deciding whether to allow the shooter to stay in school.
Further questions about Jennifer Crumbley
- 2:28 p.m. Monday
Hopkins said Jennifer Crumbley didn’t tell him about buying the shooter a gun. Or that his only hobby was shooting.
Keast said Jennifer Crumbley didn’t tell Hopkins that her husband was working for DoorDash and could have taken their son home.
Redirect: Shawn Hopkins
- 2:28 p.m. Monday
Keast asked Hopkins if Jennifer Crumbley told him about her son saying he could see demons or hallucinating. Hopkins said no. She did not tell him that she thought her son was depressed or weird, Hopkins said.
Staying in school
- 2:26 p.m. Monday
Smith asked Hopkins about his testimony that he didn’t want the shooter to be along because he was showing potential signs of suicidal ideation. Hopkins said when he spoke to the shooter, the shooter stated that he wanted to be in school.
Hopkins said the judgement call he made was that it would be better for the shooter to be around people his age then to stay home alone.
Shooter wanting to stay in school
- 2:22 p.m. Monday
The shooter told Hopkins he wanted to stay in school, Smith clarified. Hopkins said he knew that missing school was a source of anxiety for the shooter.
Smith said the option for the shooter to stay in school was on the table before the Crumbleys arrived.
Smith said there was no disciplinary issue found for the shooter.
This line of questioning was to establish that no school officials had a concrete reason to send the shooter home the morning of the shooting.
Hopkins testimony on counseling
- 2:18 p.m. Monday
Hopkins testified that it was his hope that the Crumbleys would take their son home from the meeting the morning of Nov. 30 and get him counseling help that day.
Smith asked if counselors on the list he handed Jennifer Crumbley would have been able to make an appointment on that very same day. Hopkins said he isn’t sure.
Hopkins said he had counseling after the shooting, but his appointment wasn’t on the day of the shooting. Smith said it’s not unusual to have to wait for an appointment or schedule it for the future. Hopkins said he can’t comment on hypotheticals.
Obtaining emails
- 2:16 p.m. Monday
Hopkins said the Oakland County Sheriff’s Office had full access to his email. He said on the night of the shooting, he went through and searched for relevant emails along with a police officer.
Response to being called to the school
- 2:15 p.m. Monday
Smith asked if there’s a “right” way to respond to coming to your child’s school for a meeting about something that happened. Hopkins said he’s not making a judgement about how the Crumbleys acted, just stating what happened.
Details around meeting at school
- 2:12 p.m. Monday
Smith clarified that Hopkins was with the shooter for about 90 minutes on the morning of the shooting, and only 12 minutes of that time included the parents.
Before that morning, Hopkins hadn’t spent much time with the shooter or either parent, he agreed.
Smith said Hopkins was not familiar with the dynamics of the family relationship within the Crumbley household, so he can’t make assumptions based on how the parents greeted their sons when they arrived at the meeting.
Keast had previously asked Hopkins whether the parents hugged their son when arriving and leaving the meeting.
Smith said parents could also have different types of reactions to seeing their students in a school official’s office.
Shooter mentions becoming video game designer
- 2:10 p.m. Monday
Smith clarified that the shooter told Hopkins he had interest in becoming a video game designers. Hopkins said he showed the shooter a program through Oakland Schools that could help him get training in that area.
During that conversation, Hopkins believed he had a genuine interest in that video game designing future, he said.
If Hopkins had believed that interest was not genuine, then he would have taken different actions, he agreed.
More questions about worksheet concerns
- 2:08 p.m. Monday
Hopkins said if there had been multiple people drawn on the math worksheet, he would have looked at it differently.
Smith clarified that Hopkins is trained to look at the total picture of the situation, and not just the math worksheet, when making a decision about a student who might need care.
Hopkins said that’s why he had another school official in the meeting with him, Ejak, to be in charge of discipline. Smith said Ejak has likely also had training on dealing with this type of situation, as the dean of students at a school
Deciphering defense strategy
- 2:06 p.m. Monday
Smith’s strategy with this line of questioning appeared to be to show that even someone with formal training in handling these types of situations didn’t necessarily believe that the shooter was a danger to others based on the information he had received on all those emails.
Her argument is likely that if a trained counselor didn’t think these incidents at school were worthy of alarm, Jennifer Crumbley shouldn’t be expected to make that conclusion, either.
Formal training
- 2:02 p.m. Monday
Smith said Hopkins has been formally trained on how to assess and deal with this type of potentially concerning information. He said his No. 1 way to deal with this would be to entrust the care of the student to their parents.
Drawing of gun on math worksheet
- 2 p.m. Monday
Smith asked Hopkins if he became familiar with both versions of the math worksheet. He said he became familiar with them over the course of his meeting with the shooter.
Smith asked if when Hopkins saw the gun on the original worksheet, that was enough to make him believe that the shooter posed a risk to himself or other students. He said he wasn’t sure, so that’s why he called in the parents.
“I was concerned, and I wouldn’t call in parents unless I was concerned,” Hopkins said.
Smith responded that just the drawings alone weren’t enough to conclude that there was a danger to other people. Hopkins said it was only a piece of the information he had, in addition to the shooter’s demeanor and his response to direct questioning.
Math worksheet discussion
- 1:57 p.m. Monday
Hopkins clarified that Ejak is the one who made him aware of the math worksheet, after Ejak had learned about the drawings from the teacher.
Smith clarified that Hopkins saw the original math worksheet second, after he had seen the one with drawings scribbled out. She said she would call the second worksheet (with some pictures scribbled out) the “altered” worksheet.
Morning of shooting
- 1:53 p.m. Monday
Smith pulled up the email sent to Hopkins on Nov. 30, 2021, the date of the shooting. The email was sent at 8:05 a.m. by a teacher and says that the shooter was watching videos on his phone of someone “gunning down people,” as in a movie scene.
Smith said the video was concerning when taking into account the shooter’s recent behavior.
Hopkins said he became aware of the shooter watching the videos around 30 minutes after receiving the email at 8:05 a.m.
When he read the email, Hopkins was on the phone with other parents, and he called the shooter down to the office afterward. When he spoke to the shooter, Hopkins asked him what he had been watching and relied upon that information without seeing the videos himself, Smith asserted.
Meeting with student about bullet search
- 1:51 p.m. Monday
Hopkins said the context of the meeting with the student and the other staff member was to find out the reason for the internet search.
They spoke to the shooter about school-appropriate behavior, Hopkins said.
Nov. 29, 2021 email
- 1:49 p.m. Monday
Smith then moved on to the email from the day before the shooting. She showed the email chain between Hopkins and a teacher who forwarded a message that made him aware that the shooter was looking at bullets in his first-hour class.
Hopkins said yes that the dean of students and a teacher had been made aware of the shooter’s internet search.
After Hopkins became aware of the internet search by the shooter, he confirmed he witnessed a voicemail sent to Jennifer Crumbley letting her know what had happened with her son. Smith clarified that there was no request in that voicemail that Jennifer Crumbley return the call.
Early November 2021 email
- 1:47 p.m. Monday
Next, Smith asked about the Nov. 10, 2021, emails. The Spanish teacher told Hopkins that the shooter was having a rough time and needed to speak with him.
On this occasion, Hopkins saw the shooter in the hallway during time between classes and told the shooter he could talk to Hopkins if he needed someone.
After the interaction, Hopkins did not communicate with Jennifer Crumbley about what took place with her son, he said.
September 2021 email
- 1:45 p.m. Monday
The email from Sept. 8, 2021, which was at the beginning of the following school year, was brought up next.
A Spanish teacher asked Hopkins to check in with the shooter because he had written a poem that he felt terrible and his family was a mistake.
Hopkins didn’t speak with the shooter or call Jennifer Crumbley after receiving this email, he confirmed. He only followed up with the teacher for clarification about what had happened. He did not email or call or communicate with Jennifer Crumbley at any time, even after clarifying with the teacher, he said.
May 2021 email
- 1:44 p.m. Monday
Smith showed the May 13, 2021, email, from when a teacher wanted Hopkins to speak to the shooter because he was failing and trying to sleep in class.
She clarified that Hopkins does not remember meeting with the shooter. He said he doesn’t remember the meeting, but evidence suggests he did meet with the shooter.
Hopkins confirmed that he did not call Jennifer Crumbley about this issue, to his memory.
Smith goes back through exhibits
- 1:42 p.m. Monday
Smith told Hopkins they were going to go back through the exhibits that Keast admitted during Hopkins’ testimony.
Cross examination: Shawn Hopkins
- 1:39 p.m. Monday
Shannon Smith began her cross examination of Hopkins by asking about what it takes to become a licensed counselor.
He passed the school counseling exam in 2014 and got his master’s degree in 2015. He was hired in 2015 with full licensure and renewed his license in 2020, Hopkins said.
Follow-up plan
- 1:38 p.m. Monday
If the shooting hadn’t happened, Hopkins said he planned to follow up with the shooter the next morning. If there hadn’t been any follow-up, he planned to call Child Protective Services, he said.
Meeting ends ‘abruptly’
- 1:36 p.m. Monday
Hopkins said the meeting ended “abruptly.” The student wanted to return to class and Hopkins didn’t have a specific reason to keep him from class.
Ejak said there was no disciplinary justification to keep him from class.
Hopkins said Jennifer Crumbley asked, “Are we done?” He said he replied, “I guess so.”
Hopkins wrote a pass to allow the shooter back into his classroom, so he went to class. He said it was not unusual from when any other students have left his office.
“When I handed him his pass, I just let him know that I cared about him,” Hopkins said. He said he had just spent an hour and a half with a student who was sad.
Shooter asks to stay in class
- 1:34 p.m. Monday
The shooter asked to be able to stay in class, and his parents were on board with that, Hopkins said.
The dean of students, Nicholas Ejak, was also in the meeting, and Hopkins was the only adult who didn’t have the power to remove a student from class, he said.
Hopkins did not specifically ask parents to take shooter home
- 1:33 p.m. Monday
“I did not specifically ask them to take him home,” Hopkins said. “I specifically asked them to get him therapeutic help.”
When it became clear the student wasn’t going to be taken to get help that day, he didn’t want the student to be alone if he was suicidal.
Hopkins surprised by meeting
- 1:32 p.m. Monday
Hopkins said he’s encouraged parents to get their child help and therapy in the past, but this was the first time he felt like he needed to push to make it happen.
“I was a little caught off guard and a little confused,” Hopkins said. He wasn’t expecting that response after both parents came to the meeting, which he wasn’t expecting.
“I was a little surprised at their willingness to come, but then not immediately follow through,” Hopkins said.
Mental health services
- 1:30 p.m. Monday
“I want him to be seen as soon as possible -- today, if possible,” Hopkins said. He said he also handed Jennifer Crumbley information about mental health services.
He said Jennifer Crumbley didn’t give him an absolute “no,” but she made it clear they wouldn’t be able to do it that day.
Hopkins then asked if it would be possible for him to get help within 48 hours. He said he would follow up.
Discussions during meeting
- 1:27 p.m. Monday
Hopkins said he confirmed that shooting guns was a hobby for the family and that they had gone to the shooting range over the weekend.
He also mentioned the shooter’s comments about the friend moving away, the dog and grandparent dying, and COVID difficulties.
“It did not feel as if it was new information to the parents,” Hopkins said.
He said he wanted to feel like the student could get the support he needed as soon as possible.
“I did not want him alone at that point,” Hopkins said. He said that’s why he kept the shooter in his office until the meeting began.
Meeting morning of shooting
- 1:24 p.m. Monday
Hopkins said both of the shooter’s parents came to the school around 10:40 a.m. the day of the shooting. They met with Hopkins the shooter.
Hopkins said his hope for the meeting was that the Crumbleys would “set a plan to get help for their son.” He also said his hope was that they would take him home.
Hopkins said he confirmed that Jennifer Crumbley had received the voicemail the previous day about the shooter searching for bullets on his phone.
He then went over several of the things he had heard from teachers about the shooter.
Hopkins said Jennifer Crumbley sat down for the meeting, and he got a vibe that the meeting was an inconvenience to her. He said she seemed “distant.” He also admitted that parents don’t typically act excited to come to the school.
Hopkins said he communicated before the meeting that he had concerns about the shooter.
Full jury returns, proceedings finally resume
- 1:22 p.m. Monday
The jury returned to the courtroom and proceedings finally continued at 1:22 p.m.
Keast resumed his questioning of Hopkins.
Judge asks camera to remain off
- 1:18 p.m. Monday
Matthews asked the media to turn off cameras and mute the sound at this time.
Jury asked to exit, except 1
- 1:16 p.m. Monday
Everyone in the jury was asked to exit the courtroom except for one specific juror.
Court back in session
- 1:11 p.m. Monday
Court was placed back in session, and the judge began with an update on the juror who was approached during a lunch break last week. We were not allowed to live stream or record during this time.
Jennifer Crumbley returns
- 1:10 p.m. Monday
Jennifer Crumbley returned to the courtroom with Oakland County deputies
Breakdowns from previous court dates
- 1:09 p.m. Monday
If you missed any of our updates from the first two days of the Jennifer Crumbley trial, or from the jury selection process, here are links to those articles:
Attorneys back in courtroom
- 1:02 p.m. Monday
Smith, Keast, and McDonald have returned to their places in the courtroom.
Right before lunch break
- 12:58 p.m. Monday
Right before the court took a break for lunch, Keast was about to show the pieces of evidence that were sent to Jennifer Crumbley before she went to the school for the meeting with Hopkins.
2 different math worksheets
- 12:43 p.m. Monday
The court is still in a lunch break -- this is simply more detail about the testimony we just heard.
You might have heard reference to “the first” and “the second” math worksheet drawings by the shooter. What does that mean?
Essentially, the first drawing showed what the shooter actually drew on the worksheet. The second was after he had crossed out many of the pictures.
Here are both pictures:
Hopkins meeting with shooter
- 12:32 p.m. Monday
The court is still in a lunch break -- this is simply more detail about the testimony we just heard.
Hopkins said he and the shooter were wearing masks because of the COVID pandemic, so it was a bit harder to read his facial expressions during the meeting.
When he asked pointed questions to the shooter, the shooter was compliant, but as the questions turned to the words written on the math sheet, Hopkins said the shooter became “sad.”
Hopkins said that’s when the shooter started to share more about things going on in his life, such as the death of a family dog, the death of a grandparent, a close friend moving away, struggles due to COVID, and school struggles due to COVID. He also mentioned an argument with his parents the night before.
During their meeting, Hopkins said he received the original math worksheet drawings -- a photo of the worksheet before the drawings were scribbled out.
Hopkins said the original drawing also gave him concerns about suicide because he saw one body and words that were internalized, like “Help me” and “the thoughts won’t stop.”
That’s when he decided to call the shooter’s parents into the school. He believes he had met with the shooter for around 20 minutes before making that call.
Deeper dive into Hopkins testimony so far
- 12:21 p.m. Monday
The court is still in a lunch break -- this is simply more detail about the testimony we just heard.
Hopkins talked extensively about the meeting with the shooter that centered around his drawings on the math worksheet.
He said it’s more common for a counselor to walk into a classroom to retrieve a student than the dean of students doing so -- that’s why he went to get the shooter himself. He said he grabbed the math worksheet in question at that time.
He studied the sheet while they walked back to his office. By that time, many of the drawings had been scribbled over, so the worksheet didn’t look like the original.
Hopkins said he went over the worksheet with the shooter. He said his first thought was he wanted to understand what the shooter was trying to depict.
The shooter said he liked drawing for video games and be creative in that way. Then Hopkins asked him to talk about the words he had written.
“Those stuck out to me,” Hopkins said of the words. “I noticed the words of, ‘I love my life so much,’ ‘The thoughts won’t stop.’ I could make out, ‘Help me’ under the crossed out part, and, ‘Harmless act.’ It made me concerned that the student may potentially be suicidal or be displaying suicidal ideation.”
Hopkins said he didn’t take the shooter’s explanation about video game drawings at face value.
What to expect after lunch
- 12:11 p.m. Monday
When court resumes after lunch, Keast will continue questioning Hopkins about the day of the shooting.
Hopkins was in the middle of describing the day of the shooting when Matthews said the jury’s lunch had arrived and asked if it would be a good time to break.
Court breaks for lunch
- 11:59 a.m. Monday
The judge called for the court to break for lunch. Hopkins’ testimony will continue afterward.
Court is expected to return around 1 p.m.
Setting up meeting
- 11:58 a.m. Monday
When Hopkins asked her to come in for a meeting, Jennifer Crumbley hoped her husband could handle the meeting since it would be difficult for her to leave work, he said.
Hopkins was under the impression that she was going to have her husband come, but she called back shortly afterward to say that she was going to come.
Calling Jennifer Crumbley
- 11:55 a.m. Monday
When Jennifer Crumbley didn’t answer her phone, Hopkins tried calling her husband, but then she called him back three minutes later.
Jennifer Crumbley missed the call at 9:24 a.m. and called back at 9:27 a.m., according to Keast.
She asked to speak to her son, so Hopkins put the call on speaker so they could all discuss what had happened.
Hopkins doesn’t remember Jennifer Crumbley commenting on the drawing during the phone call.
Original worksheet
- 11:54 a.m. Monday
Hopkins said he later got a picture of the original math worksheet before it had been scribbled over and altered. That picture gave him concerns that the shooter was suicidal, Hopkins said.
Hopkins told the shooter that he was going to call his parents. He gave the shooter an option of which parent to call, and he said it would be easier to get ahold of his mother.
Hopkins meets with shooter
- 11:51 a.m. Monday
Hopkins said he made the decision to go into the shooter’s classroom after learning about the math worksheet.
Hopkins said when he started asking about the words written on the worksheet, the shooter’s demeanor turned from compliant to sad. He mentioned he was struggling with COVID, school, and his dog and grandparent dying. He also mentioned a friend had left.
Hopkins called Jennifer Crumbley after meeting with her son.
Email morning of shooting
- 11:44 a.m. Monday
On the morning of the shooting, Nov. 30, 2021, Hopkins was on an email that described the shooter watching a scene of a gun scene. The teacher was concerned “taking into account his other behaviors.”
Hopkins said he received the email at 8:05 a.m., but he saw it around 8:30 a.m.
A math teacher later showed a picture to the dean of students of a worksheet that the shooter had drawn on, Hopkins said.
Parents called after short meeting
- 11:43 a.m. Monday
Hopkins said the meeting was shorter than 10 minutes, and a phone call was made to the shooter’s parent afterward.
Another school official made the phone call and left a voicemail
Email day before shooting
- 11:38 a.m. Monday
On Nov. 29, 2021, an email was forwarded to Hopkins. That email was about the shooter searching bullets on his phone, and the teacher also said looking back, some of the shooter’s past work “leaned toward the violent side.”
Hopkins said he met with the shooter alongside other school officials.
Early November interaction
- 11:36 a.m. Monday
Hopkins also received an email in early November about the shooter.
Hopkins said he spoke to the shooter the following day and let him know that if he needed someone to talk to, he was there for him.
He didn’t notify the parents at that time because it was a fairly common and normal case at that time, Hopkins said.
September email exchange
- 11:35 a.m. Monday
On Sept. 8, another teacher emailed Hopkins and expressed some concern about the shooter. In this case, Hopkins didn’t have a direct interaction with the shooter -- he only talked to the teacher, he said.
The teacher gave him greater context and he did not have a meeting with the shooter at that time. He also did not email or call the parents.
Meeting with shooter in May 2021
- 11:34 a.m. Monday
An email was sent from an Oxford High School staff member to Hopkins on May 13, 2021, at 1:46 p.m.
The email said the shooter was failing a class and trying to sleep. Hopkins said he would catch that student by the end of the day. The staff member replied, “Thanks, just a little worried.”
Hopkins doesn’t recall the meeting in May 2021.
Interactions with shooter
- 11:32 a.m. Monday
Hopkins said he first would have interacted with the shooter in the fall of 2021. He said he doesn’t specifically remember those interactions, but they would have included scheduling.
Hopkins said he doesn’t remember interacting with the shooter during his freshman year from the fall of 2020 to the winter of 2021. But he is aware there was an email exchange.
Difficulties of 2021 school year
- 11:30 a.m. Monday
Hopkins said the fall of 2021 was a difficult time for students and educators because there were remote considerations during COVID.
“The unknown can be difficult sometimes,” Hopkins said. “We saw a lot of depression, anxiety, students struggling. We saw suicide ideation and, unfortunately, suicide attempts around that time.”
Breakout story: Un-redacted messages
- 11:29 a.m. Monday
Jennifer Crumbley agreed to disclose un-redacted Facebook messages between her and her husband. Click here to read much more about this story.
You can also watch video of this exchange below.
Witness: Shawn Hopkins
- 11:26 a.m. Monday
Shawn Hopkins was a counselor at Oxford High School at time of shooting, and he is currently on leave through the end of the school year.
The shooter was one of the students assigned to Hopkins’ case load.
Judge: Start new witness before lunch
- 11:21 a.m. Monday
Matthews asked the jury if they were OK to start hearing from another witness before lunch. She said lunch will likely be around noon.
Keast said this witness will not be finished by lunch, but they are going to begin anyway.
Redirect: Kira Pennock
- 11:19 a.m. Monday
Pennock said many of her messages were just so she could gain more information, not necessarily because she was genuinely worried about Jennifer Crumbley.
Stealing
- 11:18 a.m. Monday
“You have never suspected that Jennifer Crumbley has stolen anything from you, have you?” Smith asked.
Pennock said no. She also clarified that she has never filed a police report against the Crumbleys.
During redirect, Pennock said she was just worried about something being stolen because of the situation surrounding the shooting.
Warning signs
- 11:15 a.m. Monday
Smith highlighted the message in which Pennock said there were probably warning signs but nobody saw them. She asked Pennock if there had been warning signs, wouldn’t she have spoken up? Pennock agreed that she never brought up specific warning signs.
“You didn’t say, ‘Jennifer, there were warnings,’?” Smith said. “In fact, you continued to go on to be kind to Mrs. Crumbley.”
Pennock agreed.
Facebook messages after shooting
- 11:12 a.m. Monday
Smith said there were many people angry with the Crumbley parents after they found out the identity of the school shooter. Pennock agreed.
Pennock clarified that she needed to make sure herself, her close family, and her barn family were safe. That’s why she told Jennifer Crumbley not to come to the barn without a police escort.
Smith clarified that there was never a time when Jennifer Crumbley told Pennock that she planned to lie or mischaracterize anything. Pennock agreed. When Pennock told Jennifer Crumbley to be honest, she didn’t think that there was a plan to lie, she testified.
Hindsight
- 11:10 a.m. Monday
Pennock said she thought she knew who the shooter was because she had seen the math worksheet. Smith said she needed hindsight, then. Pennock agreed.
Smith asked Pennock if she really thought the math sheet meant there would be a shooter if she would have done something to try to prevent a shooting. Pennock said yes. Smith said since you didn’t do that, you didn’t see the math sheet and then immediately believe there would be a shooting.
Math worksheet
- 11:07 a.m. Monday
Smith asked if Pennock agreed that Jennifer Crumbley was very concerned when she sent the picture of the math worksheet. Pennock agreed that Jennifer Crumbley expressed concern.
Smith asked Pennock to clarify that she knew who the shooter was after she heard that a shooting had happened at Oxford High School.
“If you saw that math paper and thought that there would be a school shooting, you would have told someone, correct?” Smith asked.
Pennock said she can’t predict the shooter but she was very concerned about the picture she received so she talked to her parents about the situation. She said her understanding was that the Crumbleys had met with the school and the issue had been discussed.
Smith said Pennock might have been concerned, but she didn’t call law enforcement. Smith’s point was to establish that a reasonable person could see the math worksheet and not be responsible for knowing that a shooting would follow.
More questions about 2022 testimony
- 11:05 a.m. Monday
Pennock said in 2022 that she never had the feeling that the Crumbleys had issues with their son. Pennock said Monday that they had never told her about specific issues, but that there were indirect comments that they might have made issues at some point.
Smith clarified that Pennock said in 2022 she didn’t have any feeling that the Crumbleys were having “those types of issues” with their son. She also said that her sworn testimony in 2022 happened closer to the shooting than Monday’s testimony.
Prelim testimony
- 11:01 a.m. Monday
Smith asked Pennock about her testimony that Jennifer Crumbley said her son was “weird.”
Pennock said the way Jennifer Crumbley talked about her son was very “vague.”
“People like to talk about her children and she did not talk about her children,” Pennock said.
During the preliminary examination in 2022, Pennock was asked, “Have you ever been given reason to believe he was not mentally sound, that he needed professional or medical help?” And her answer was “no” on that occasion, Smith said.
She also testified in 2022 that she did not have specific reason to believe the shooter was homicidal.
Farm details and phone service
- 10:59 a.m. Monday
Smith asked Pennock if the farm is in a remote area and not close to a large city, and Pennock agreed. Pennock admitted that there were times when she would struggle to get a signal at the farm to make calls or send messages.
Smith asked Pennock if people would sometimes struggle with cell service.
Pennock said there are some areas on the farm that are more reliable service-wise, but if it’s too windy, it might not work well.
Pennock admits friendship
- 10:58 a.m. Monday
Pennock told Smith that she had a business relationship with Jennifer Crumbley as well as a friendship, but it wasn’t a close friendship.
Cross examination: Kira Pennock
- 10:56 a.m. Monday
Smith began questioning Pennock.
Crumbley asked for cash
- 10:53 a.m. Monday
Pennock said she offered to pay cash or check for the horse sale, and Crumbley told her that cash would be best.
Pennock agreed to pay $5,800 for Billy and all their equipment.
The horses were signed over to Pennock after payment wasn’t made after a certain period of time, she said.
‘My Messenger is probably being monitored’
- 10:52 a.m. Monday
Jennifer Crumbley told Pennock she thought her messages were probably being monitored, so she asked for a phone call so they could meet to discuss the horse sale.
Pennock said she was trying to avoid a phone call.
Jennifer Crumbley tries to call, more messages exchanged
- 10:48 a.m. Monday
Pennock said Jennifer Crumbley tried to call her, but she didn’t want to pick up.
Pennock was asked about the appearance that she changed her mind about letting the Crumbleys come to the farm.
Clearer Facebook messages
- 10:40 a.m. Monday
Prosecutors put up clearer pictures of the Facebook messages for Pennock to read.
More Facebook messages revealed
- 10:36 a.m. Monday
Prosecutors showed more messages between Jennifer Crumbley and Pennock, including the sale of their horse, Billy.
Pennock says she was worried about safety
- 10:34 a.m. Monday
Pennock said she was more concerned about the safety of herself and the people at her farm.
She said she was showing sympathy to try to figure out if the Crumbleys were going to try to come to her farm.
Pennock said she was worried that the parents of the shooter might come to the farm and try to steal in order to sell to make money. Smith objected to the line of questioning and the judge agreed that Pennock can’t say for sure what the Crumbley intentions were at the time.
Facebook reaction to shooting
- 10:29 a.m. Monday
Pennock and Jennifer Crumbley also talked about the reaction to the shooting on Facebook.
Pennock messaged Jennifer Crumbley saying she couldn’t believe the reaction toward the parents of the shooter.
“I was concerned about what was going to happen in the future, just with my farm in general,” Pennock said. “I was 25.”
Pennock said she didn’t truly feel bad for Jennifer Crumbley.
“I was upset that this had happened to all of the kids and families, and I wanted to find out how I could possibly get more information to try to help make sure things were taken care of,” Pennock said.
Messages after shooting
- 10:25 a.m. Monday
Pennock said Jennifer Crumbley messaged her again after the shooting to say she wouldn’t make it to her lesson. They talked briefly about the horses, and then Pennock reached back out later to make sure everything was OK.
Jennifer Crumbley responded that she needed to sell her horse. There were several Facebook messages exchanged.
‘I knew who the shooter was’
- 10:21 a.m. Monday
“My first thought was that I knew who the shooter was, based on the math test she had sent to me,”
Pennock said she knew it wasn’t normal for those types of things to be drawn at a school.
She said she talked to her parents after the shooting and said she believed she knew who the shooter was, and explained to them about the math sheet.
More messages revealed
- 10:21 a.m. Monday
Prosecutors showed more Facebook messages that were exchanged between Jennifer Crumbley and Pennock. You can see them below.
Pennock on math worksheet
- 10:18 a.m. Monday
Pennock said she believes she looked at the picture before the shooting happened, but she looked back at the picture closer after the shooting.
“I remember seeing that he had needed horse therapy, that she said she should bring him out for some horse therapy,” Pennock said.
Day of shooting
- 10:13 a.m. Monday
Jennifer Crumbley was planning to go to the barn the night of the shooting for a riding lesson, but she didn’t end up attending the lesson, according to Pennock.
“Boys are needing supplements for tonight and shorty lost a bell boot again,” Pennock messaged Jennifer Crumbley at 10:18 a.m. Nov. 30, 2021.
“K I’ll bring some out later,” Jennifer Crumbley replied at 10:58 a.m. “Just had to go to my son’s school and meet his counselor s--- day.”
Later, Jennifer Crumbley said she still planned on doing the lesson. She said her son was caught drawing on a math assignment, and she sent a picture of the math sheet to Pennock.
Interaction on day before shooting
- 10:09 a.m. Monday
Pennock said she can’t remember if she communicated with Jennifer Crumbley the day before the shooting -- Nov. 29, 2021. She remembers talking to her the prior weekend -- Thanksgiving weekend -- about trying to set up lessons.
Pennock said she saw the social media post from Jennifer Crumbley about buying her son a gun. She can’t remember if she saw that post before or after the shooting at Oxford High School.
Before the shooting, their horse Billy needed medication from the vet to help treat mud fever because it wasn’t being fixed with other products. His legs were swollen.
The vet gave them ointment to put on his legs. Pennock believes the Crumbleys picking up the medication on the morning before the shooting and going to the barn.
Care for horses
- 10:09 a.m. Monday
She said the Crumbleys would come out to the barn and put medication on Billy’s legs for mud fever.
The vet had to come out for another issue with Billy, too, Pennock mentioned.
Pennock said the horses were on “a lot of supplements,” that she estimated would cost probably $200 per month for each horse.
Relationship with Jennifer Crumbley
- 10:07 a.m. Monday
Pennock said her relationship with Jennifer Crumbley was mainly business. They would talk, but she wouldn’t say that they were “close friends.”
Before the Crumbleys moved to her barn, Pennock said she would give Jennifer Crumbley lessons and answer general questions about caring for a horse.
Wifi at barn
- 10:05 a.m. Monday
Pennock said the barn has wifi, but the service can be really strong some days and not as strong on the others.
McDonald likely asked this question in response to Smith’s suggestion on Friday that Jennifer Crumbley might not have immediately seen text messages from her son while at the barn.
Pennock speaks about shooter
- 10 a.m. Monday
Pennock said she might have met the Crumbleys’ son once or twice, but never once they had moved their horses to her barn.
Pennock said she allows children at the barn for lessons or just to spend time with animals. She also said there’s a “family reunion” and there are parties, such as a Halloween party. This year, their Halloween party was on a Friday or Saturday night.
Jennifer Crumbley went to the Halloween party, as did her husband, but they didn’t bring their son.
Pennock was asked if Jennifer Crumbley ever talked about her son.
“Not a ton, but every once in awhile she would mention something about him,” Pennock said.
“Usually, it was along the lines of she was having problems with him or he wasn’t acting normal. She had called him ‘weird’ before. She wanted him to do normal kid things.
“There was nothing truly positive when she was talking about him. There were times when she had said he was an ‘oopsy’ baby.”
Horse details
- 9:56 a.m. Monday
Their horses were named “Billy” and “Shorty.”
Both thoroughbreds raced on the race track before the Crumbleys bought them. Pennock said she believes Billy was purchased for around $5,000.
Meeting the Crumbleys
- 9:52 a.m. Monday
Pennock said she first met the Crumbleys a few years ago when they owned a horse and were boarding that horse at another barn. Pennock’s horses were also boarded at that farm before she bought her own.
In July 2021, the Crumbleys moved their horses to Pennock’s farm. She said they owned two horses by this time.
Pennock said she knew Jennifer Crumbley better than James Crumbley.
Witness: Kira Pennock
- 9:47 a.m. Monday
Monday’s first witness is Kira Pennock, who owns and runs the horse farm where Jennifer Crumbley and her husband kept their horses.
Smith apologizes
- 9:46 a.m. Monday
Smith apologized to the court, and specifically to the families of the victims, for her comment on Friday.
Frustrated by struggles with pieces of evidence, Smith said, “I’m going to kill myself.” She was criticized by the prosecution after the jury had left.
Matthews accepted Smith’s apology, and the proceedings continued.
Facebook messages won’t be redacted
- 9:40 a.m. Monday
Jennifer Crumbley was asked on the record about the Facebook messages between herself and her husband. Those messages were first supposed to be redacted to exclude conversations about certain topics.
Smith asked her client in front of the court whether she would like to allow all the messages to be shown to the court without redactions. They said they don’t want it to appear like they’re hiding anything from the jury.
Keast clarified that the jury could read those messages and that prosecution can also bring up those messages during proceedings, including cross examination during her own testimony. Jennifer Crumbley said she understands.
The exhibit is over 2,000 pages long and begins in January 2021.
Judge Matthews arrives, court in session
- 9:37 a.m. Monday
Matthews has arrived and court is in session.
Prosecution arrives
- 9:31 a.m. Monday
Keast and McDonald arrived in the courtroom.
Shannon Smith arrives
- 9:28 a.m. Monday
Lead defense attorney Shannon Smith was the first lawyer seen in the courtroom.
Friday’s argument centered around victims’ families
- 9:19 a.m. Monday
The confrontation between the prosecution and the defense at the end of court Friday stemmed from concerns about the families of the Oxford shooting victims.
McDonald claimed that Smith’s courtroom jokes were insensitive to the people whose loved ones were harmed by the shooting, but Smith said she didn’t mean any offense.
Smith reiterated that the shooting was a horrible tragedy and accused of the prosecutors of “parading” all the shooting evidence in front of the families and making them live through the shooting again.
Matthews took some blame for what happened, saying she was the one who first brought up drinking wine to the defense.
Neither side yet in courtroom
- 9:10 a.m. Monday
Matthews said she wanted to begin Monday’s proceedings between 8:30 and 9:30 a.m., and so far, none of the attorneys have entered the courtroom.
Jennifer Crumbley, Judge Matthews, and the jury are also not yet present.
Highlights from Edward Wagrowski testimony
- 8:59 a.m. Monday
All of Friday’s testimony came from Wagrowski, who was questioned by both sides for several hours.
Wagrowski talked through surveillance footage from inside Oxford High School at the time of the shooting, walking the courtroom through the route the shooter took.
Prosecutors also presented dozens of texts and Facebook messages between Jennifer Crumbley and her husband, the shooter, her boss, and friends.
Some of those texts were shown to suggest that Crumbley cared more about her horse than her son. Others attempted to establish that she should have known something was wrong with the shooter’s mental state.
Wagrowski also broke down the morning of the shooting, when the parents were called to the school for a meeting about disturbing drawings on a math assignment.
Smith’s cross examination of Wagrowski mostly centered around pointing out that messages are only part of a larger story and can’t possibly prove that Jennifer Crumbley didn’t talk to her son about his issues in person.
Charges against Jennifer Crumbley
- 8:47 a.m. Monday
Jennifer Crumbley is facing four counts of involuntary manslaughter -- one for each of the students who were killed when her son opened fire inside the hallways of Oxford High School.
This is a potential precedent-setting case, as no parent has ever been charged for a mass shooting by their child.
Prosecutors are trying to prove that the shooter’s parents ignored clear warning signs that their son was a danger to others and that they were grossly negligent in reacting to those warning signs.
Exhibit 423
- 8:32 a.m. Monday
During Friday’s proceedings, both sides agreed to admit exhibit 423, which is the full list of Facebook messages exchanged between Jennifer Crumbley and her husband in 2021.
But certain messages need to be redacted from the transcript, such as those about the parents’ alcohol use, possible infidelity, and the cleanliness of their house.
Smith and the prosecutors argued about whether she had received all of those messages and then discussed who would go through and remove messages about the aforementioned topics.
Smith said she needs the original file of exhibit 423 and offered to go through and make the redactions. The judge said Smith can’t just redact the file without the prosecution’s input.
This is likely one of the issues that will be resolved before proceedings on Monday.
5 witnesses so far
- 8:21 a.m. Monday
Through two full days of trial, we’ve heard from five of the prosecution’s witnesses -- four on Thursday and one on Friday.
Molly Darnell is an Oxford Community Schools staff member and Kristy Gibson-Marshall is the assistant principal at Oxford High School.
Cammy Back works at the gun store where the Crumbleys bought the gun used in the shooting.
ATF Special Agent Brett Brandon testified for several hours Thursday about the guns in the Crumbley household.
Edward Wagrowski, who worked for the Oakland County Sheriff’s Office computer crimes unit at the time of the shooting, was on the stand for the entire day Friday to go over digital evidence from cellphones, surveillance cameras, and more.
Shouting match
- 8:08 a.m. Monday
If you stopped watching as soon as the jury was dismissed Friday, you might have missed the shouting match between lead defense attorney Shannon Smith, assistant Oakland County Prosecutor Marc Keast, and Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald in front of the judge.
McDonald criticized Smith for making jokes about wine and “killing herself” during the trial, and Smith shot back that the prosecutors were the ones “parading” evidence in front of the victims’ families.
The exchange escalated to the point that Matthews had to shout over everyone and tell them to leave the courtroom.
You can read the full transcript of that exchange and watch the video by clicking here.
Today’s timeline
- 7:58 a.m. Monday
At the end of proceedings Friday, Judge Cheryl Matthews asked the jury to return to the courtroom at 9 a.m. Monday to continue the trial.
The prosecution and defense are expected to have to work through a few issues before the fifth witness in the case is called to the stand.